Giorgi Gogia
Associate director
Europe and Central Asia Division, Human Rights Watch
Georgia
Online press conference with Giorgi Gogia, associate director at Europe and Central Asia Division, Human Rights Watch (Georgia).
The online press conference was organized within the framework of “Alternative Information for Armenian-Azerbaijani Dialogue” project (april 2011-december 2011) implemented by Region Research Center (Armenia) and Institute of Peace and Democracy (Azerbaijan) with the support of the British Embassies in Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Topics: Human Rights in Armenia and Azerbaijan; Тhe Functions and Efficiency of Activity of HRW in Different Parts of the World.
David Stepanyan, “Arminfo” news agency-www.arminfo.am (Armenia)
1. Hello, Mr. Gogia, I represent ArmInfo news agency. Laterally the day before the coordinator of Human Rights Watch for Europe and Central Asia Rachel Denber called the European Union to give Azerbaijan to know that the EU will deepen its political and economic ties with Azerbaijan only when Baku undertakes concrete steps to improve the situation with human rights. Do you consider the application of such an approach by the EU possible in case Azerbaijan continues to refuse to improve the situation with human rights in the republic?
-The European Union has been negotiating with the countries in South Caucasus on association relations. This document includes some conditions. The document is quite significant, for it will serve as a basis for future negotiations between Eastern Partnership countries and the EU. There will be concrete conditions the members of the Eastern Partnership Programme will have to meet to deepen their relations. I think if the European Union expresses willingness, it is very realistic to expect these conditions.
2. On Friday President of Armenia Serzh Sargsyan proposed the Parliament to proclaim amnesty. It is said that as a result of this amnesty all political prisoners who are still in prison for the case of March 1, 2008, will be granted a pardon. Do you think it is a manifestation of good will by the authorities or are there any other reasons here?
-I can only welcome such an amnesty for these prisoners should not have been imprisoned from the very beginning. And if the amnesty does happen, and as a result these people get released, it will be a step forward.
3. Please share with us your vision and your assessment of the current situation with human rights in Armenia and Azerbaijan. Can you notice any differences and what forecast can you provide regarding the development of the situation in this aspect in the future?
-Human Rights Watch never compares the countries it works with. The standards are the same for all. They include international law, international humanitarian law, human rights, everything these countries have undertaken to implement. The problems related to human rights are present in all the countries in South Caucasus. In every individual case we usually speak about those main human rights issues that are present in the given country.
4. The authorities in Armenia have undertaken concrete steps to ensure the protection of the rights of its citizens, but unfortunately things are still where they started. Do you think they are effective and possible to implement, if we take into account the constant pressure put on the authorities of the republic by European structures?
-We will have to wait a little to evaluate the efficiency of the steps taken by the authorities in Armenia. You know that the President of Armenia ordered to investigate the case of March 1, 2008, once again. An amensty is planned. Let's wait and see.
Anjela Khachatryan, 1in.am (Armenia)
1. Hello, Mr. Gogia. I am reporter from the Zhamanak (Time) newspaper and 1in.am portal. The authorities in Armenia mostly think that international organizations apply double standards and criticize the authorities only for living up to their own interests. Do you agree to such a perspective, and do you think the reports of these organizations are always objective?
-If you mean intergovernmental international organizations – the UNO, OSCE and so on, I cannot generalize whether there are double standards in their decisions or actions. I can speak for my organization. All the countries we have been working with have voluntarily undertaken to comply with conventions that describe human rights and provide for rights and freedoms. And if the governments of these countries do not meet their commitments, again I cannot say anything about the reports of all international organizations.
2. The President of Armenia gave an order to law-enforcing bodies to investigate the case of March 1, 2008, with a new start, but many do not believe that the law-enforcing bodies in Armenia will be able to conduct an objective investigation. How do you assess this situation, and what do you think is needed in order to have the case of March 1 fully exposed?
-The order of the President of Armenia on conducting the investigation anew already means that the previous investigation was not conducted thoroughly and that there was no public confidence in its results. That is why we should still wait for the results of the new investigation, and it is very important that both the public and the political forces were involved in this process. As you know, Human Rights Watch made a special report on the events of March 2008, and it is very interesting and important that the results of the new investigation reflect the answers to the questions raised in the report of our organization. It is also important to have concrete figures guilty of offences held liable.
3. The working team under the Ombudsman in Armenia is proposing amendments to the RA Law on TV and Radio, passed in 2010. How do you assess the draft amendments proposed by the working team, since Human Rights Watch has criticized the adopted law?
-I am not familiar with these amendments but it is a fact that this law must meet the diversity of media requirement. According to this law, the number of media outlets must go down rather than up. Digital broadcasting just gives more possibilities for media diversity. I hope that the amendments will result in an elimination of restrictions.
4. Do you think that the most perfect law can be enforced in a country with no political will for its implementation?
-It is a fact that the laws must be improved. If there are no perfect laws to cover a problem completely, there will be more violations of human rights. If the laws are perfect, the citizens will be better protected, of course, under a condition that there is also a political will for it.
5. The law on decriminalization of libel and offense now challenges the freedom of media for the politicians and oligarchs sue the media outlet in every suitable case and demand huge indemnity payments. Today we have over a dozen suits against mass media. How do you assess this situation, and how can Armenian mass media function with no free and objective courts?
-Punitive operations should not be administered against journalists. And if fines are charged for libel or offense, they must comply with the reality. I absolutely agree with you that the mentioned problem exists in Armenia and I assess the situation negatively.
Gagik Baghdasaryan, “News Armenia” news agency-www.newsarmenia.am (Armenia)
1. Mr. Gogia, good afternoon. I apologize for my question deviates a little from the main topic. How would you assess the latest events in Tbilisi from the perspective of international standards and criteria with regard to human rights? Do the conflicting parties manage to go beyond these standards?
-The opposition rally in Tbilisi was authorized and legal. There are facts that the participants of the rally were armed with sticks, and there was only one case when the rally participants broke a car that is completely impermissible and is a case of violation. I cannot say now what kind of violation this was – a disciplinary or criminal act, but this is no case of human rights violation. The fact of using rubber bullets, the circumstances and the manner of their use should still be thoroughly investigated. According to international standards, the use of rubber bullets for dispersing a demonstration equals the use of regular bullets, and this is allowed only in extreme cases. The thing is that dozens of people were arrested, and it is necessary to assess how legitimate these arrests were and whether the procedural rights of the arrested were not violated. Only after such a thorough study of facts and happenings shall we be able to give them a legal evaluation.
2. Mr. Gogia, some Armenian experts hold the view that international human rights organizations are a tool for international interference in the domestic affairs of a state, aiming to solve political issues or achieve geopolitical goals? How do you assess such statements?
-Human rights violations often go beyond the borders of one country. Human rights are universal, and if countries have voluntarily undertaken to observe them and have signed concrete conventions, this automatically means that they are ready to open up their countries for a detailed examination of the situation with human rights before international organizations and the international community. The protection of human rights is not the issue of a single, individual country. I do not think that such examinations means interference into domestic affairs.
Armen Minasyan, panorama.am (Armenia)
1. Hello, Mr. Gogia. On May 12 the European Parliament adopted a tough resolution on Azerbaijan which contains very many tough formulas against the authorities in the country. What do you think such a tough reaction of European structures to the social and domestic situation in Azerbaijan is conditioned by? Will this tough reaction lead to social shifts and changes in the domestic policy in Azerbaijan? Don't you think that the given resolution is a manifestation of the tough policy of the united Europe against Azerbaijan?
-This resolution of the European Parliament was caused by the recent aggravation of the situation with human rights in Azerbaijan. I mean the arrests of oppositional activists and social network activists. This is a very important resolution, and currently negotiations between the European Commission and our countries are underway, and I hope that this resolution will impact on these negotiations and the recommendations of the European Parliament will be considered as conditions for the development of deeper relations with the EU.
2. How will you comment on the reaction of Azerbaijani religious leaders, in particular that of the head of Baku-based Caucasus Muslims' Administration Allakhshukyur Pasha-zade reagrding the establishment of Georgia Muslims' Administration NGO in Georgia? I should remind that Allakhshukyur Pasha-zade announced that Tbilisi pursued ambitious goals to tear away the Azerbaijanis in Georgia from Azerbaijan.
-This question is outside my competence.
3. What do you think the situation with human rights in Georgia is like?
-There remain problems with human rights in Georgia. As you know our organization compiles an annual report on human rights in the world, and I can mention the violations of human rights that have been included in last year's report. These include the eviction of displaced people from the places of their temporary residence, that is to say the description of how it happened – with violations of international norms, issues of violence applied by the Police during demonstration dispersal, problems with humanitarian law, transparency of media outlet ownership, issues of keeping the arrested in penal facilities.
4. How will you comment on the fact that on the eve of the dispersal of the demonstration Georgian law-enforcing bodies repeatedly applied force?
-I have already answered this question.
Aydin Kerimov, “Novoye Vremya” newspaper-www.novoye-vremya.com (Armenia)
1. What is the situation with the rights of journalists in South Caucasus countries?
- There are problems in all the three countries. There is criminal punishment for libel in Azerbaijan, that is to say, for everything that's written; there are many journalists who get beaten, and these facts are investigated by the Police, and still no one is amenable for this. There are facts of physical violence and threats against journalists. Besides, there is no independent TV.
Armenia also has problems with the rights of mass media. Armenia does not have independent TV either, regardless of the decision made by the European Court, A1+ TV channel has not yet resumed its work on air. At first sight, Armenia has made a progressive step, adopting the law on digital broadcast, but, despite of this, the number of TV channels decreased instead of improving the situation with the diversity of media in the country. Even though there are fewer criminal punishments in Armenia, there are large fines for libel. This surely restrains journalists and mass media.
There is no criminal punishment for libel in Georgia, but the main problem consists in the non-transparency of media ownership. That is to say, it is neither understandable nor transparent who the owner of this or that media outlet in Georgia is. Even though recently the Georgian Parliament adopted a law on the transparency of media owners, until now, for example, it is not clear who this or that TV station belongs to.
2. How does the multi-party system develop in Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia, and is there a problem with the registration of political parties?
- I can't answer this question, for I have not studied it.
3. Is there a dialogue between the authorities and the opposition in Georgia?
- This is a political question that isn’t directly related to human rights. Of course, as an individual, I have my own opinion on this; however the question is outside my competence.
Rashad Rustamov, “Zerkalo” newspaper-www.zerkao.az (Azerbaijan)
1. What does the difference between the humanitarian situation in Azerbaijan and that in Armenia consist in?
- I do not understand what you mean by “humanitarian situation,” I am sorry I do not understand the question.
2. Do you think it is possible to solve the problem of political prisoners in Azerbaijan and Armenia in the near future?
- The situation is quite different in Armenia and Azerbaijan. In Azerbaijan the issue of political prisoners has existed for quite a time now, and as you know the Council of Europe has appointed Christopher Strasser (a PACE delegate) as a special representative on issues of political prisoners in Azerbaijan who has not yet been able to make an official visit to Azerbaijan for over two years now to examine the issue of political prisoners. The government refuses to cooperate with European structures on these matters; hence I do not see any solution to this issue in the near future. As for the political prisoners in Armenia, there are some positive changes. The people who were arrested for political reasons have recently been released, and they say a further release of all prisoners for political reasons is expected. Let's wait and see how things develop.
3. What reforms in the humanitarian sphere can bring Azerbaijan closer to the success Georgia has achieved?
- I do not think that the situation with freedoms is ideal in Georgia; there are very many problems with this in Georgia, too. Azerbaijan must come closer not to Georgia, but those standards it has undertaken to comply with. One of the most important steps to be taken by Azerbaijan is the decriminalization of defamation, the release of imprisoned media representatives, the investigation of facts of assault and violence against journalists, and the provision of freedom of assembly.
Tarana Kyazimova, “Turan” news agency-www.contact.az (Azerbaijan)
1. Is it possible that the Arabic revolutions will impact on the countries in South Caucasus?
- This is a question that relates to politics and is outside my competence. I should only say that the events in the Arabic countries must be a lesson for the countries in South Caucasus to learn from. We must honor human rights and create more open political systems.
2. What is your opinion on the arrests of the participants of oppositional actions in March and April in Armenia and Azerbaijan?
-I was in Azerbaijan during the April demonstrations. There were many problems: demonstrations and marches were not officially authorized, there were many arrests, some on the eve of demonstrations, and others during the demonstrations proper. The right to a counsel was violated; other procedural violations also took place. Dozens of activists were sentenced to an imprisonment for 4 – 10 days; the court hearings on administrative cases were often held at night and were closed for public. Definitely our attitude to this is negative and we call Azerbaijan to comply with the undertakings it has committed to. As for Armenia, I am not aware of recent arrests related to demonstrations. During the time period you mentioned the opposition in Armenia held demonstrations in the venues it had selected, and as far as I know there were no violations, restricting these demonstrations in Armenia.
3. What is your opinion on child labor in the three republics – Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan?
-This is another topic I have not studied. I work in the three countries, and there are problems that fall out of the scope of our attention.
Anna Bartkulashvili, Freelance Journalist
4.I would like to know your opinion on the adoption of a law on defamation. Are there any restrictions of the freedom of speech, and are they identical in all the republics in South Caucasus?
- As I understand it, you mean the law on defamation in Azerbaijan. This law has not been passed yet, and it is quite probable that when defamation is decriminalized in Azerbaijan, huge fines will be administered to influence the freedom of speech and that of the journalist. Certainly, there must be civil responsibility for defamation, but this responsibility must be adequate to the violations and not be of punitive nature.
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